Interview With Dandelion (Geothermal) Co-Founder Kathy Hannun
Could you quickly explain how geothermal energy works, and where it is particularly useful?
Geothermal heating and cooling is done by using a heat pump to move heat between the ground and a home or building. The term ‘heat pump’ may be unfamiliar, but heat pumps are actually ubiquitous in modern life: refrigerators are heat pumps, as are air conditioners. Both refrigerators and air conditioners use electricity to move heat from one place to another: in this case, from the inside (of the fridge or building) to the outside.
Geothermal heat pumps are similar, but instead of only moving heat in one direction, they are bidirectional. This allows them to both heat buildings and cool them. And instead of moving heat from the building to the outside air, like an air conditioner does, they move heat between the building and the ground.
This matters because heating your home is most urgent and essential when it’s very cold out, which is precisely when there is the least amount of heat in the outside air. And cooling your home is most urgent and essential when it’s very hot out, exactly when it would be most difficult to reject heat from your home into the outside air. This is why air conditioners are so difficult for the electricity grid: they operate least efficiently exactly when everyone uses them most, on the hottest days of the year.
Geothermal heat pumps sidestep this problem by exchanging heat with the ground instead of the outside air. The ground maintains a mild temperature year round (which is the average air temperature over the course of the year in that location). Because of this, even on the hottest or coldest days, geothermal is still extremely efficient and effective.
Geothermal heating and cooling tends to work best in places where it gets cold in the winter and hot in the summer. This is because these climates require a lot of heating and cooling, and it’s in these places that geothermal has the most advantage over air source heat pumps, which exchange heat with the air outside (air source heat pumps are essentially air conditioners that can run in reverse to do both heating and cooling.)
You have a cost example between oil, natural gas, and propane on your page, s0 how do you think these costs are going to develop the next 5 years?
In the Wall Street Journal last week there was an article about options traders betting on a return to $100 oil. I can’t predict oil prices over the next five years, but oil prices have been relatively low since I co-founded Dandelion in 2017, so I bet oil prices are more likely to rise over the next five years than they are to fall. In terms of how geothermal costs are going to develop in the next 5 years, I think 10% lower YOY is a good estimate.
What different forms of geothermal are there, since we see geothermal in the context of residential housing as well as in big commercial plants?
Geothermal can refer to harnessing energy from the earth’s core, the type Iceland is famous for, but this is not what Dandelion’s geothermal heat pumps do. The heat that geothermal heat pumps collect from the relatively shallow surface is actually stored sunlight, not energy from the earth’s core, so despite the name ‘geothermal,’ geothermal heat pumps are actually using stored solar energy.
How did you learn about the potential of geothermal, and what convinced you to co-found the company?
I learned about the potential of geothermal heating and cooling from a colleague at Google, Bob Wyman (I started Dandelion as a project at Alphabet’s X before spinning it out as a startup). He made a compelling case that widespread geothermal heating and cooling was the most important climate intervention we could take in the US, but that, despite that, geothermal heat pumps were getting approximately no attention.
It was an audacious claim, but he had detailed data and logic backing it up, so his argument captivated me and motivated me to learn more.
That interest developed into co-founding Dandelion when I became convinced that, 1) Geothermal heat pumps have a critical role to play in offsetting carbon emissions from buildings; 2) They align the customer’s financial interests with society’s best interests; 3) The market potential is gigantic; and 4) The barriers that have prevented geothermal heating and cooling from scaling in the past are addressable.
Is there a certain story behind the name Dandelion?
Dandelions have a taproot that can grow as deep as ten feet into the ground. Even if you cut the flower off at the surface, the taproot can regenerate a new one. Similarly, geothermal ground loops extend far into the ground and they last for as long as the home itself. So after 20 years, when it’s time for the homeowner to replace their heat pump, they can just swap it out with another one and connect it with those same ground loops.
There is something very satisfying about the fact that each time we install ground loops in a yard, that home will have access to geothermal heating and cooling forever. Or at least, as long as that home exists.
If you look back to the investment the company received, did the investment landscape and interest in geothermal change visibly in the last few years?
The investment landscape for clean tech has changed dramatically since I co-founded Dandelion in 2017. In 2017, very few investors and even fewer mainstream VC investors were interested in clean tech. Now it seems like there is widespread interest. This makes sense to me because investors have seen that clean tech companies like Tesla can offer massive returns, and the political and business trends suggest clean tech will be a huge part of the future.
Could our readers get out and buy geothermal right away, and in which states (if we’re talking about the US) would it make the most sense (on average)?
Geothermal makes the most financial sense for homeowners who are paying a lot for heating and cooling today. Typically, these are homeowners in cold climate states, especially those using heating fuels like fuel oil or propane.
Some states and utilities also offer generous incentives for geothermal heating, such as NY, CT, MA, SC, and VT, among others.
Most readers will likely be able to find a company that can install geothermal heating and cooling in their area, but the cost may be high. Dandelion exists because we see a need to make geothermal heat pumps more affordable and the process of getting them easier for homeowners, and we look forward to being able to extend that work to more and more places over time (today Dandelion works in NY, CT, and VT).
What is your main competition, and how is Dandelion different?
Our primary competition today is inertia, which is to say conventional heating and cooling options. When it’s time for homeowners to replace their furnace or boiler, many homeowners seek the recommendation of their contractor, who is likely going to recommend the products and brands he or she is most familiar with (typically furnaces and boilers).
Our challenge is to raise awareness of geothermal heating and cooling. We’re different from other geothermal heating and cooling providers because we do residential retrofit at scale. This has let us leverage the fact that we’re serving hundreds of homeowners in a given area to get all of our homeowners better pricing on their equipment and the installation. We’ve also focused on streamlining the customer experience to make the experience of getting geothermal simple and straightforward.
If you could found the company over again, what things would you do differently today?
So many things! Hard to overstate how many things! But here are a few:
- I would have looked for mentorship even earlier. I was incredibly fortunate to get connected with Dan Yates, the cofounder and CEO of Opower, about a year into the company, and he had a transformative impact on Dandelion and on me as a leader. If I could have learned even a fraction of what he taught me sooner, I would have saved myself and others a lot of stress during those early years!
- I wouldn’t have assumed partners, subcontractors, or anyone else except Dandelion would solve the problems we needed to solve to make the business work. When I started the company, we had a model that assumed local HVAC contractors would sell and install geothermal for customers on behalf of Dandelion. It didn’t take us very long to realize that given these activities were so central to our mission of making geothermal heating simple and affordable, we couldn’t outsource them to others.
- I would have been less tolerant of underperformers. I think this is a hard lesson for many new managers, but at the beginning of Dandelion when I was still relatively new to managing a team, I spent an outsized portion of my time and energy dealing with the most difficult employees. With many hard lessons behind me now, I invest the bulk of my time with the highest performing employees, because they are the ones that will build the business and carry us furthest toward our mission.
What other cleantech and general development do you find particularly interesting or fascinating? What would you love to get involved in more but don’t have the time?
I’m an advisor to a startup called Noon that’s inventing a way to use cheap, abundant materials to store a lot of energy at a very low cost. While clean tech history is littered with battery failures, I find Noon exceptionally compelling because it’s one of those bets that could change everything if it works.
If you could suggest a particular law (cleantech or otherwise), what would you suggest?
An extension of the Investment Tax Credit for at least a decade at 30%. This would go such a long way in allowing critical clean technologies like geothermal heat pumps to scale.
Are there some companies you’d really like to work with, but haven’t quite gotten through to yet? Maybe some employees or shareholders are reading this and can reach out! 🙂
We are working with quite a few utility companies across NY, CT, and now VT to offer geothermal incentives for homeowners to transition from furnaces and boilers to heat pumps. These programs have been very successful: they’re good for utility companies because homeowners who use geothermal will typically use more electricity, especially on off-peak times, like night and winter. Geothermal heat pumps also dramatically reduce summer peaks. It’s good for homeowners because it makes geothermal heating and cooling more affordable. We are always looking for additional utility companies to work with, to make geothermal heating and cooling available in more states.
Are you hopeful for humanity, and what would need to happen to make you more hopeful?
I am very hopeful. We have very real challenges to solve, but for the average person, life on this planet has never been better than it is right now. Life expectancy has increased more since 1900 than it had in the preceding 8000 years, and the quality of our lives has astronomically improved with electricity, refrigeration, antibiotics, sanitation, genetically modified crops, the internet, and so many other world-changing innovations that are only a hundred or so years old.
I think it’s likely humanity will continue its pattern of successfully innovating our way out of our biggest challenges.
All images courtesy Dandelion
According to a credible new report, Elon Musk has reportedly shut down an internal analysis from Tesla executives that showed the company’s Robotaxi plans would lose money and that it should focus on its more affordable ‘Model 2’.
In early 2024, we reported that Musk had canceled Tesla’s plan for a new affordable electric vehicle built on its upcoming ‘unboxed’ vehicle platform, often referred to as ‘Model 2’ or ‘$25,000 Tesla’.
Instead, Musk pushed for only its new Robotaxi, also known as Cybercab, to be built on the new platform, and replaced the plans for a next-gen affordable EV with building cheaper versions of the Model Y and Model 3 with fewer features.
This decision culminated a long-in-the-making shift at Tesla from an EV automaker to an AI company focusing on self-driving cars.
We credit that shift initiated by Musk for the current slump Tesla finds itself in right now, where it has only launched a single new vehicle in the last 5 years, the Cybertruck, and it’s a total commercial flop.
Now, The Information is out with a new in-depth report based on Tesla insiders that describe the decision-making process around the cancellation of the affordable Tesla and the focus on Robotaxi.
The report describes a meeting at the end of February 2024 when several Tesla executives were pushing Musk to greenlight the $25,000 Tesla:
In the last week of February 2024, after a couple of years of back-and-forth debate on the Model 2, Musk called a meeting of a wide range of executives at Tesla’s offices in Palo Alto, Calif. The proposed $25,000 car was on the agenda—a final chance to air the vehicle’s pros and cons, the people said. Musk’s senior lieutenants argued intensely for the economic logic of producing both the Model 2 and the Robotaxi.
After unveiling its next-generation battery in 2020, Musk announced that Tesla would make a $25,000 EV in 2020, but he had clearly soured on the idea by 2024.
He said in October 2024:
I think having a regular $25,000 model is pointless. Yeah. It would be silly. Like, it’ll be completely at odds with what we believe.
The Information says that Daniel Ho, head of Tesla vehicle programs, Drew Baglino, SVP of engineering, and Rohan Patel, head of business development and policy, Lars Moravy, vice president of vehicle engineering, and Franz von Holzhausen, chief designer, all pushed for Musk to greenlight the production of the new $25,000 model.
Omead Afshar, a Musk loyalist who started out as his chief of staff and now holds a wide-ranging executive role at Tesla, reportedly said, “Is there a mutiny?”
The executives pointed to an internal report that didn’t paint a good picture of Tesla’s Robotaxi plan. The report has credibility as Patel commented on it:
We had lots of modeling that showed the payback around FSD [Full Self Driving] and Robotaxi was going to be slow. It was going to be choppy. It was going to be very, very hard outside of the U.S., given the regulatory environment or lack of regulatory environment.
Musk dismissed the analysis, greenlighted the Cybercab, and killed the $25,000 driveable Tesla vehicle in favor of the Model Y-based cheaper vehicle with fewer features.
The information describes the analysis:
Much of the work was done by analysts working under Baglino, head of power train and one of Musk’s most trusted aides. The calculations began with some simple math and some broad assumptions: Individuals would buy the cars, but a large portion of the sales would go to fleet operators, and the vehicles would mostly be used for ride-sharing. Many people would give up car ownership and use Robotaxis. Tesla would get a cut of each Robotaxi ride.
The analysis followed a lot of Musk’s assumptions, such as that the US car fleet would shrink from 15 million a year to roughly 3 million due to Robotaxis having a 5 times higher utilization rate.
They subtracted people who wouldn’t want to switch to a robotaxi for various reasons, arriving at a potential for 1 million self-driving vehicles a year.
One of the people familiar with the analysis said:
There is ultimately a saturation of people who want to be ferried around in somebody else’s car.
After accounting for competition, Tesla figured it would be hard for robotaxis to replace the ~600,000 vehicles it sells in the US annually.
Tesla calculated that the robotaxis would bring in about $20,000 to $25,000 in revenue at the sale and about three times that from Tesla’s share of the fares it would complete over their lifetimes:
The analysts figured Robotaxis would sell for between $20,000 and $25,000, and that Tesla could make up to three times that over the lifetime of the cars through its cut of fares. They added in capital spending and operational costs, plus services like charging stations and parking depots.
The internal analysis assigned a much lower value to Tesla robotaxis than Musk had previously stated publicly.
In 2019, Musk said:
If we make all cars with FSD package self-driving, as planned, any such Tesla should be worth $100k to $200k, as utility increases from ~12 hours/week to ~60 hours/week.
Furthermore, Tesla’s internal analysis pointed toward difficulties expanding into other markets, which could limit the scale and profitability of the robotaxi program. Ultimately, it predicted that it could lose money for years.
Electrek’s Take
For years, this has been one of my biggest concerns about Tesla: Musk surrounding himself with yesmen and not listening to others.
This looks like a perfect example. It was a terrible decision fueled by Musk’s belief that he was smarter than anyone in the room and encouraged by sycophants like Afshar.
Musk has been selling Tesla shareholders on a perfect robotaxi future, but the truth is not as rosy, and that’s if they solve self-driving ahead of the competition, which is a big if.
It’s not new for the CEO to make outlandish growth promises, but it’s another thing to do at the detriment of an already profitable and fast-growing auto business.
The report also supports our suspicions that the shift in strategy contributed to some of Tesla’s talent exodus last year.
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Environment
Geely exercises its Put Option on Lotus UK, enabling reintegration of all businesses under the Lotus brand
Bear with me, as this one is a bit complicated and jargon-heavy. Lotus Technology Inc. announced that Geely, the majority owner of its vehicle manufacturing business Lotus UK, exercised its put option earlier this week to sell its 51% stake in the latter company back to the former company. In Lamen’s terms, Geely is out, so Lotus Tech has to buy the 51% of Lotus UK back, putting all those respective businesses back under one umbrella. Still with me? More below.
The Lotus brand was founded in the UK over 70 years ago and has made a name for itself in delivering sporty yet luxurious hypercars. Unlike many of its competitors, Lotus was a relatively early adopter of EV technologies and has previously vowed to become an all-electric brand.
That promise was part of a strategy bolstered by Geely Hong Kong Ltd. (Geely), which acquired 51% of Lotus Advanced Technologies (Lotus UK or Lotus Cars) in 2017. As a result, Geely gained majority control of Lotus’ manufacturing division in the UK and its consultancy division, Lotus Engineering.
Lotus Technology Inc. – The R&D and design business of Lotus Group has been operating as a separate entity since then. In late January 2023, Geely and Lotus Tech signed a Put Option on Geely’s 51% stake in Lotus UK’s equity interests. As of April 14, 2025, Geely has decided to exercise said Put Option, requiring Lotus Tech to purchase that majority stake back, which it intends to do this year.
Lotus Tech ($LOT) to buy business back from Geely
Lotus Technology Inc. ($LOT) issued a press release today outlining details of Geely’s Put Option announcement. The company explained its intention to purchase 51% of Lotus Cars and reorganize R&D, engineering, and manufacturing under one brand.
The equity interest purchase of Lotus Cars will be a non-cash transaction based on a pre-agreed pricing method between Lotus Tech and Geely, i.e., the 2023 Put Option. Lotus Tech CEO Qingfeng Feng addressed the news:
This acquisition marks a critical milestone in our strategic journey to fully integrate all businesses under the Lotus brand, which will strengthen brand equity and enhance our operational flexibility and internal synergies. We are confident that the transaction will create substantial long-term value for our shareholders.
Mr. Feng may be painting a rosier picture than what is actually going on. It will be beneficial to regain control over Lotus UK and Lotus Engineering to consolidate financials and streamline business operations. Still, an exercised Put Option is hardly ever encouraging news.
Geely remains a massively successful global auto conglomerate and a key piece behind many leading EV technologies across its marques, especially in China. The fact that such a savant in engineering and EV development has left Lotus’ corner is concerning when imagining the future of the veteran UK brand, at least in terms of BEV development.
Lotus Tech… or Lotus Cars? Okay, let’s just call the company Lotus now. Whatever the name, Lotus will continue without Geely but still has support from consumer-focused investment firm L Catterton following a SPAC merger completed last year.
The reintegration of all Lotus businesses is expected to be completed this year. According to a representative for the company, it is now in a blackout period, so they could not comment any further until Lotus releases its Q4/ EOY 2024 earnings on April 22. That report will offer more insight into where the automaker currently stands financially and what plans it has going forward without Geely. Hopefully those plans still include more sexy BEVs!
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California’s e-bike incentive program is back, offering CA residents another opportunity to receive up to $2,000 off a new electric bicycle.
The second application window opens on April 29 at 5 PM, with 1,000 vouchers set to become available. In order to become eligible for a chance to receive one of the limited vouchers, applicants must enter the online waiting room between 5 and 6 PM.
According to the incentive program rules, all entries during this period will be placed in random order, and thus, everyone will have an equal chance to apply.
The program, launched by the California Air Resources Board (CARB), aims to promote zero-emission transportation options, especially for low-income residents. Eligible applicants must be at least 18 years old and have a household income at or below 300% of the Federal Poverty Level. Approved participants will receive a voucher of up to $2,000, which can be used at participating retailers.
The program’s initial launch in December 2024 saw overwhelming demand, with all 1,500 vouchers claimed within minutes. At one point, the application queue reached 100,000 people.
For those interested in applying, it’s crucial to be prepared and enter the waiting room promptly at 5 p.m. on April 29. Given the high demand during the first round, the available vouchers are expected to be claimed quickly.
For more information and to apply, visit the California E-Bike Incentive Project’s website.
Electrek’s Take
Programs like California’s e-bike voucher initiative aren’t just about saving a few bucks on a fun new ride – they’re about transforming transportation. E-bikes are proven to reduce car trips, improve mobility for low-income communities, and offer a genuinely fun and efficient alternative for commuting, errands, and more.
With transportation costs associated with car ownership or public transportation creating a constant economic burden for commuters and increasingly worsening traffic in many cities, making e-bikes more accessible isn’t just good policy – it’s common sense.
California’s program, though far from perfect in execution, shows that there’s massive public interest in affordable, practical micromobility. When 100,000 people rush to get a shot at riding an electric bike, it’s not a fringe idea – it’s a movement. If policymakers are serious about cutting emissions and improving quality of life, incentives like these should be expanded and replicated across the country.
California’s program still has significant room for improvement, but it’s a great step in the right direction. I’d love to see it get more funding to enable significantly more vouchers, as well as have an entry window longer than just one hour to allow folks who may have work or other conflicts to enter as well. But with each round, it appears the program is making improvements. Progress is good; let’s keep it up.
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