Horizon IT scandal: Post Office officials knew of instruction for Fujitsu to remotely change sub-postmaster accounts 10 years ago, leaked recordings suggest
The Post Office’s IT helpdesk was instructing Fujitsu, the maker of faulty accounting software, to change sub-postmaster accounts more than a decade ago, according to leaked recordings.
Two secret audio recordings with Post Office officials, obtained by Sky News, demonstrate how much the government-owned company knew about flaws with the Horizon IT programme, used by sub-postmasters to record branch transactions.
Hundreds were prosecuted for theft and false accounting and many more borrowed large amounts, lost homes, and moved from their areas after incorrect shortfalls were generated by Horizon.
Forensic accountants Second Sight was examining issues with Horizon in 2013, two years before the Post Office stopped using the software data to prosecute sub-postmasters.
‘Fujitsu tells Post Office: We will change the balances’
Those forensic accountants uncovered emails from the Post Office to Fujitsu, they said in leaked calls in May 2013.
Ian Henderson of Second Sight said: “What we’re seeing from the emails is [Fujitsu] were getting instructions, in effect, directly from the helpdesk saying, ‘Look, we need this fixed. You know, can you work your magic?’ and the responses are going back, ‘Yeah, it will be done in the overnight run tonight. We will change the balances or whatever’.”
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On that call were the Post Office’s chief lawyer Susan Crichton and company secretary Alwen Lyons, as well as another Second Sight forensic accountant Ron Warmington.
Specific dates, times and places Fujitsu made ‘corrections’
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At that time, Second Sight had already found specific dates, times, and branches where Fujitsu made “corrections” or “adjustments” to sub-postmaster accounts, Mr Henderson told a Post Office IT staff member on a separate tape.
“We have identified some very specific dates and times and, indeed, branches where this capability [to alter accounts] is alleged to have been used,” he said.
Concerns over an alleged Post Office testing facility at Fujitsu were raised by Post Office chief lawyer Susan Crichton in her recorded conversation with Second Sight. “Maybe, you know, it is the case that that exists,” she said.
Mr Henderson of Second Sight wanted the focus to remain on the Post Office.
“Well, remember it was [Post Office Limited] employees. They just happened to be located in a Fujitsu building. I don’t think we can sort of pass the blame on to Fujitsu,” he said.
A ‘difficult few years’ ahead
Fujitsu was being updated on Second Sight’s findings and was “getting nervous about the whole thing”, Mr Henderson said. “I am picking up some vibes along those lines.”
Ms Crichton said in response that this information should be included in an email from Second Sight to Post Office officials.
She was bracing for a tough time with Fujitsu. “We have got a difficult few years with them, I think.”
Post Office delays that slowed the investigation
Second Sight was already facing difficulties in its investigation due, in part, to delays at the Post Office.
Some Horizon data was “thin on the ground”, Second Sight forensic accountant Ron Warmington said, which meant it couldn’t complete inquiries into instances where sub-postmasters said Horizon didn’t work properly.
Mr Warmington said: “We have documented what the sub-postmaster says – asserts, and validated as best we can without looking at the Horizon data, and submitted it, but that we haven’t yet got a response from Post Office Limited and/or we haven’t got the underlying data yet to validate or refute the assertion.”
Replies from the Post Office sometimes took six weeks, Mr Henderson of Second Sight told Post Office chief lawyer Ms Crichton.
“Also, frankly, we could be a lot more aggressive in terms of bringing to your attention delays in the system when we’ve bashed something out and it takes six weeks for a substantive reply to come back.”
“Yeah, you need to be shouting to me,” Ms Crichton said.
Second Sight’s contract was eventually terminated by the Post Office in 2015 before their work could be completed.
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Fresh questions for Post Office
New pressure on Paula Vennells
The tapes also show the extent of Paula Vennells, the Post Office’s former chief executive’s knowledge of Horizon’s failings, six years before the organisation acknowledged wrongdoing in 2019 and apologised as part of sub-postmaster victims’ successful High Court challenge.
Officials said on the tapes they were updating Ms Vennells. “The way that I’ve tried to brief Paula is as soon as I have evidence that, you know, there is a problem she knows about it the next minute”, company secretary Alwen Lyons said.
Image: Paula Vennells in 2018. Pic: Rex
Two years on from the date of the tape calls, Ms Vennells told the MPs of the Business and Trade Committee that remote access to Horizon was not possible. Such denials were used in the court case against sub-postmasters.
Today that committee said all options are on the table, including holding Ms Vennells in contempt of parliament.
“We are deeply concerned by the latest revelations regarding the Post Office and will be exploring options for penalising the leadership that presided over the scandal,” Business and Trade Committee Liam Byrne said.
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In response to Sky News’s reporting, Ms Vennells said: “I continue to support and focus on co-operating with the inquiry and expect to be giving evidence in the coming months.
“I am truly sorry for the devastation caused to the sub-postmasters and their families, whose lives were torn apart by being wrongly accused and wrongly prosecuted as a result of the Horizon system.
“I now intend to continue to focus on assisting the inquiry and will not make any further public comment until it has concluded.”
A Post Office spokesperson said: “We remain fully focused on getting to the truth of what happened and supporting the statutory Public Inquiry, which is chaired by a judge with the power to question witnesses under oath, and is therefore best placed to achieve this.”
Fujitsu said it does not wish to comment.
Alwen Lyons and Susan Crichton did not respond to requests for comment.
Additional reporting by Emily Jennings, business producer.
Britain’s biggest high street lender is closing in on a deal to buy Curve, a provider of digital wallet technology that its new owner hopes will give it an edge in the race to build smarter online payments systems.
Sky News has learnt that Lloyds Banking Group could announce the acquisition of Curve for about £120m as soon as this week.
City sources said this weekend that the terms of a transaction had been agreed, although a formal announcement could yet slip to later in the month.
The financial services giant, which owns the Halifax brand and operates the biggest bank branch network in the UK, believes Curve’s digital wallet platform will be a valuable asset amid growing regulatory pressure on Apple to open its payment services to rivals.
Curve was founded by Shachar Bialick, a former Israeli special forces soldier, in 2016, and was hailed as one of Britain’s most promising fintechs.
Three years later, Mr Bialick told an interviewer: “In 10 years’ time we are going to be IPOed [listed on the public equity markets]… and hopefully worth around $50bn to $60bn.”
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The sale price may therefore be a disappointment to long-standing Curve shareholders, given that it raised £133m in its Series C funding round, which concluded in 2023.
That round included backing from Britannia, IDC Ventures, Cercano Management – the venture arm of Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen’s estate – and Outward VC.
Curve was also reported to have raised more than £40m last year, while reducing employee numbers and suspending its US expansion.
In total, the company has raised more than £200m in equity since it was founded.
Curve is being advised by KBW, part of the investment bank Stifel, on the discussions with Lloyds.
The company is chaired by the City grandee Lord Fink, who is also a shareholder in the company.
Curve has been positioned as a rival to Apple Pay in recent years, having initially launched as an app enabling consumers to combine their debit and credit cards in a single wallet.
Image: Curve Pay is a digital wallet, which combines a person’s credit and debit cards into a single wallet
Lloyds is said to have identified Curve as a strategically attractive bid target as it pushes deeper into payments infrastructure under chief executive Charlie Nunn.
In March, the Financial Conduct Authority and Payment Systems Regulator began working with the Competition and Markets Authority to examine the implications of the growth of digital wallets owned by Apple and Google.
Lloyds owns stakes in a number of fintechs, including the banking-as-a-service platform Thought Machine, but has set expanding its tech capabilities as a key strategic objective.
The group employs more than 70,000 people and operates more than 700 branches across Britain.
Curve is chaired by Lord Fink, the former Man Group chief executive who has become a prolific investor in British technology start-ups.
When he was appointed to the role in January, he said: “Working alongside Curve as an investor, I have had a ringside seat to the company’s unassailable and well-earned rise.
“Beginning as a card which combines all your cards into one, to the all-encompassing digital wallet it has evolved into, Curve offers a transformative financial management experience to its users.
“I am proud to have been part of the journey so far, and welcome the chance to support the company through its next, very significant period of growth.”
IDC Ventures, one of the investors in Curve’s Series C funding round, said at the time of its last major fundraising: “Thanks to their unique technology… they have the capability to intercept the transaction and supercharge the customer experience, with its Double Dip Rewards, [and] eliminating nasty hidden fees.
“And they do it seamlessly, without any need for the customer to change the cards they pay with.”
News of the talks between Lloyds and Curve comes days before Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, is expected to outline plans to bolster Britain’s fintech sector by endorsing a concierge service to match start-ups with investors.
Lloyds declined to comment, while Curve has been contacted for comment.
Union leaders are demanding no eleventh-hour retreat by the government on workers’ rights now their champion Angela Rayner is no longer in the cabinet.
As delegates gather in Brighton for the TUC’s annual conference, the movement’s leadership is claiming four million people – one in eight of the UK workforce – are in “pervasive” insecure work.
And union bosses are urging the government to stand firm and reject attempts by Tories and Liberal Democrats to weaken the former deputy prime minister’s Employment Rights Bill in its final stages in parliament.
The TUC’s general secretary, Paul Nowak, has claimed Ms Rayner, who resigned on Friday over unpaid stamp duty on a seaside flat, was a victim of misogyny and was being hounded out by right-wing politicians and right-wing media.
Image: Paul Nowak believes Angela Rayner was a victim of misogyny
As well as Ms Rayner leaving the government, the other minister driving the bill through parliament, Jonathan Reynolds, was demoted in Sir Keir Starmer’s cabinet reshuffle from the senior post of business secretary to chief whip.
Until last week, Ms Rayner had been expected to deliver the keynote Labour Party speech at the TUC on Tuesday, but it emerged midweek that the education secretary, Bridget Phillipson, would be the speaker.
However, in Friday’s reshuffle she lost responsibility for adult skills – a key issue for the unions – to the new work and pensions secretary Pat McFadden, who will now head a new, beefed-up super-ministry promoting growth.
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And ironically, the TUC conference in Brighton is taking place less than two miles from the luxury seaside flat in Hove, on which Ms Rayner’s avoidance of £40,000 in stamp duty led to her resignation as deputy PM, housing secretary and Labour deputy leader.
Just before parliament’s summer recess, the House of Lords backed by 304 votes to 160 a Tory-led amendment to Ms Rayner’s bill to reduce the qualifying period for unfair dismissal claims from two years to six months, rather than from day one, as proposed by Ms Rayner.
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The rise and fall of Angela Rayner
Third reading of the bill in the Lords was last Wednesday, the day of Ms Rayner’s Sky News confession, and the bill is now set for parliamentary ping-pong, assuming the government overturns the Lords’ amendments in the Commons.
But in a pre-conference interview with Sky News, TUC chief and Rayner supporter Mr Nowak demanded no diluting of her bill, which also includes banning zero hours contracts which exploit workers and fire and rehire.
“We are now at a crucial stage in the delivery of the Employment Rights Bill, just weeks away from Royal Assent,” said Mr Nowak. “And our clear message to the government will be to deliver the bill and deliver it in full.
“Ignore the amendments from the unelected peers, Tory and Lib Dem peers in the House of Lords, that are aimed at gutting the legislation, weakening workers’ rights.
“Stand with the British public, deliver decent employment rights. That’s important in workplaces up and down the country, but it’s important because these are proposals that are popular with the British public as well.”
Image: Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson will be making a speech at the TUC’s conference
The TUC says its analysis shows low-paid jobs in occupations such as the care, leisure and service sectors account for 77% of the increase in insecure jobs since 2011.
Black and ethnic minority ethnic workers account for 70% of the explosion in insecure work, according to the TUC, and southwest England and Yorkshire and Humber are insecure work hotspots.
Mr Nowak told Sky News: “We’ve got well over a million people now on zero-hours contracts. We’ve got millions of people who don’t have sick pay from day one and 70% of the kids who live in poverty have parents who go out to work.
“The government is absolutely right to be focused on making work pay. And the Employment Rights Bill is about putting more money in the pockets of working people, giving people more security at work.
“That’s good for workers, but it’s also good for good employers as well, so they’re not undercut by the cowboys.”
“Angela Rayner is playing a really important role in government and I wouldn’t want to see her hounded out of an important role by right-wing politicians and the right-wing media, who frankly can’t handle the fact that a working-class woman is our deputy prime minister.”
Londoners face almost a week of travel disruption when Underground workers go on strike next week.
There will be limited or no services for several days, and those services that are still running are expected to be busier than usual.
Members of the Rail, Maritime and Transport union (RMT) voted overwhelmingly for strike action after nine months of negotiations failed to resolve a long-running dispute over pay and conditions.
Transport for London (TfL) has offered a 3.4% pay rise which it described as “fair” but said it cannot afford to meet the RMT’s demand for a cut in the 35-hour working week.
Further talks have also failed to end in an agreement, but Nick Dent, London Underground’s director of customer operations, said it was not too late to call off the strikes before causing chaos in the capital.
Here is all you need to know.
When are strikes planned?
Strikes are planned from midnight on Sunday 7 Septemberto 11.59pm on Thursday 11 September.
There is separate planned industrial action on 5 and 6 September, but this is not expected to cause disruption on TfL services.
The other days, however, will see delays across every underground line and the Docklands Light Railway (DLR).
Image: Tube services will be limited for five working days next week. File pic: PA
What’s running – and what’s not?
Sunday 7 September:
• Disruption across the entire Tube network, with limited services running • Those that are running will finish early, with TfL encouraging people to finish journeys by 6pm • The DLR will be running a normal service
Monday 8 September:
Tube • Little to no service running across the entire Tube network • No service before 8am or after 6pm
DLR • Full service, but stations shared with the Tube network may face disruption
Tuesday 9 September:
Tube • Little to no service running across the entire Tube network • No service before 8am or after 6pm
DLR • No service on the entire network
Wednesday 9 September:
Tube • Little to no service running across the entire Tube network • No service before 8am or after 6pm
DLR • Full service, but stations shared with the Tube network may face disruption
Thursday 11 September:
Tube • Little to no service running across the entire Tube network • No service before 8am or after 6pm
DLR • No service on the entire network
Friday 12 September:
Tube • No service before 8am • Service will return to normal on all lines by late morning
DLR • Normal service
What about the Elizabeth Line and Overground?
The Elizabeth Line, London Overground and trams will be running on strike days. London’s bus network is also expected to be running a full service.
However, TfL warns other services will be extremely busy and trains may be unable to stop at all stations or run to their normal destinations.
Image: No strikes are planned on the Elizabeth Line, but trains will not stop at some stations. Pic: iStock
On Monday 8 and Wednesday 10 September, the Elizabeth line will not stop at the following stations before 7.30am and after 10.30pm:
• Liverpool Street • Farringdon • Tottenham Court Road
On Tuesday 9 and Thursday 11 September, trains will not stop at the same stations before 8am.
How to get around during the Tube strike
As always during industrial action, TfL urges commuters to plan ahead and allow extra time for their journeys.
To do this, use TfL’s journey planner, or apps including City Mapper.
Cycling or walking is also recommended by TfL, with Santander, Lime and Forest bikes available to hire across the capital, as well as electric scooters in some London boroughs.
Image: TfL recommends commuters use bikes or walk round London during strikes. Pic: iStock
The band posted a statement on social media to say their Music Of The Spheres shows on 7 and 8 September have been rescheduled to 6 and 12 September respectively.
“Without a Tube service, it’s impossible to get 82,000 people to the concert and home again safely, and therefore no event licence can be granted,” the band said.