A lawyer for the Post Office at the height of the Horizon IT scandal has told the public inquiry he feels “no pride” to be employed by the company.
Rodric Williams, a civil law specialist who joined the organisation in 2012, told the hearing he was “truly sorry” for being associated with the “greatest miscarriage of justice we’ve seen”.
A first day of evidence for the New Zealand national, now among three legal leads at the Post Office, saw Mr Williams admit a “bunker mentality” among staff in relation to the media’s coverage of the faulty Horizon IT system.
In his second day, Mr Williams was pressed on what he knew about the Post Office’s ex-head of security John Scott allegedly shredding minutes from a meeting concerning Horizon bugs.
The inquiry heard the Post Office feared sub-postmasters who had been convicted of offences jumping on a “bandwagon” and challenging their convictions if damaging documents surfaced as part of the mediation process.
The word came as part of a 2013 meeting between the Post Office’s in-house and external lawyers, which read: “It was widely agreed that there was likely to be a ‘bandwagon’ approach in relation to defendants challenging their previous convictions.”
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Mr Williams was also accused of knowing “perfectly well” that the Post Office had “relied on a liar and a perjurer to convict innocent people” following expert evidence provided by leading Horizon engineer Gareth Jenkins in the trial of sub-postmistress Seema Misra.
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Seema Misra: It still gives me nightmares
She was suspended from her branch in 2008 and handed a 15-month prison sentence, while eight weeks pregnant, in November 2010 after being accused of stealing £74,000.
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The inquiry heard how the Post Office received advice from external barrister Simon Clarke in 2013 suggesting an expert witness, Mr Jenkins, and the Post Office had “breached their duties” to the court, and subsequent advice suggested meeting minutes talking about Horizon bugs had been shredded.
Questioned on his views on the wrongful conviction of Mrs Misra, Mr Williams told the inquiry: “I take no pride, comfort or confidence in having worked for an employer that has engaged in conducting the greatest miscarriage of justice that we’ve seen, or however it has been described.
“I don’t know where to go with this – it’s awful that people with convictions had them, and had them for the length of time that they did.
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Review into Post Office system
“And for my part in that, I’m truly sorry that I’ve been associated with this. I’m truly sorry for that.”
Chairman Sir Wyn Williams interjected: “I think the point, Mr Williams, is at a moment in time, namely 2014, when on any sensible reading of Mr Clarke’s advice from July 2013, there was a problem about Mr Jenkins’s evidence, the Post Office and you personally appeared to still be asserting to the world that the conviction was safe, amongst other things, because expert evidence had been called and the jury, by inference, must have accepted it.
“Those two things don’t sit very easily together, do they?”
Image: Rodric Williams also gave evidence on Thursday. Pic: POHI
Mr Williams replied: “No, they don’t, sir. No, they don’t.”
Addressing the destruction of meeting minutes in advice given to the organisation, Mr Clarke had written: “An instruction was then given that those emails and minutes should be, and have been, destroyed: the word ‘shredded’ was conveyed to me.”
Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC asked: “Presumably you were quite shocked to read it?”
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Ex-Post Office boss under fire
The Post Office lawyer replied: “Yes.”
Mr Beer later asked: “What steps did you take to ensure that it was investigated in any way whatsoever?”
After the witness said he did not recall, the counsel to the inquiry continued: “Is the answer none?”
Mr Williams replied: “I can’t remember what happened at that time 11 years ago – so what I felt needed to be done or should be done I can’t recall now.”
Following an interjection by chairman Sir Wyn Williams urging him to answer the question, Mr Beer continued: “Should the serious or very serious matters raised in Mr Clarke’s advice have been investigated by the Post Office?”
The witness said: “Yes.”
Asked if consideration was given to reporting the matter to the police, Mr Williams said: “I don’t believe so, no.”
Mr Beer continued: “Would you have been concerned if you found out that it was said to be the head of security that had given an instruction to shred documents?”
Donald Trump has revealed that media mogul Rupert Murdoch and his son Lachlan could be part of a deal in which TikTok in the United States will come under American control.
The US president also namedropped Michael Dell, the founder and CEO of Dell Technologies, as a possible participant in the deal during an interview with Fox News, which is owned by the Murdochs.
“I think they’re going to be in the group. A couple of others. Really great people, very prominent people,” Mr Trump said. “And they’re also American patriots, you know, they love this country. I think they’re going to do a really good job.”
Mr Trump said that Larry Ellison, founder and CEO of software firm Oracle, was part of the same group. His involvement in the potential TikTok deal had previously been revealed.
Image: President Donald Trump speaking to reporters outside the White House. Pic: AP/Mark Schiefelbein
White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt said on Saturday that Oracle would be responsible for the app’s data and security, with Americans set to control six of the seven seats for a planned TikTok board.
This comes after Mr Trump said he and China’s Xi Jinping held a “very productive call” on Friday, discussing the final approval for the TikTok deal, much of which is still unknown.
Once confirmed, the deal should stop TikTok from being banned in the US after lawmakers decided it posed a security risk to citizens’ data.
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Officials warned that the algorithm TikTok uses is vulnerable to manipulation by Chinese authorities, who can use it to push specific content on the social media platform in a way that is difficult to detect.
Congress had ordered the app shut down for American users by January 2025 if its Chinese owner ByteDance didn’t sell its assets in the country – but the ban has been delayed four times by President Trump.
Mr Trump said on Sunday that he might be “a little prejudiced” about TikTok, after telling reporters on Friday: “I wasn’t a fan of TikTok and then I got to use it and then I became a fan and it helped me win an election in a landslide.”
After the call with Mr Xi, Mr Trump said in a Truth Social post: “We made progress on many very important issues, including Trade, Fentanyl, the need to bring the War between Russia and Ukraine to an end, and the approval of the TikTok Deal.”
Mr Trump later told reporters at the White House that Xi had approved the deal, but said it still needed to be signed.
Representatives for the Murdochs, Mr Dell and Mr Ellison have not yet commented on a potential TikTok deal.
Gatwick’s second runway has been given the go-ahead by the government.
The northern runway already exists parallel to Gatwick‘s main one, but cannot be used at the same time, as it is too close.
It is currently limited to being a taxiway and is only used for take-offs and landings if the main one has to shut.
The £2.2bn expansion project will see it move 12 metres north so both can operate simultaneously, facilitating 100,000 extra flights a year, 14,000 jobs, and £1bn a year for the economy.
It would also mean the airport could process 75 million passengers a year by the late 2030s.
Gatwick is already the second busiest airport in the UK, and the busiest single runway airport in Europe.
No public money is being used for the expansion plan, which airport bosses say could see the new runway operational by 2029.
The expansion was initially rejected by the Planning Inspectorate over concerns about its provisions for noise prevention and public transport connections.
Campaigners also argued the additional air traffic will be catastrophic for the environment and the local community.
A revised plan was published by the planning authority earlier this year, which it said could be approved by the government if all conditions were met.
The government says it is now satisfied this is the case, with additions made including Gatwick being able to set its own target for passengers who travel to the airport by public transport – instead of a statutory one.
Nearby residents affected by noise will also be able to charge the airport for the cost of triple-glazed windows.
And people who live directly under the flight path who choose to sell their homes could have their stamp duty and estate agent fees paid for up to 1% of the purchase price.
CAGNE, an aviation and environmental group in Sussex, Surrey, and Kent, says it still has concerns about noise, housing provision, and wastewaster treatment.
The group says it will lodge a judicial review, which will be funded by local residents and environmental organisations.
‘Disaster for the climate crisis’
Green Party leader Zack Polanski criticised the second runway decision, posting on X: “Aviation expansion is a disaster for the climate crisis.
“Anyone who’s been paying any attention to this shambles of a Labour Govenrment (sic) knows they don’t care about people in poverty, don’t care about nature nor for the planet. Just big business & their own interests.”
Friends of the Earth claimed the economic case for the airport expansion has been “massively overstated”.
Head of campaigns Rosie Downes warned: “If we’re to meet our legally-binding climate targets, today’s decision also makes it much harder for the government to approve expansion at Heathrow.”
Shadow transport secretary Richard Holden welcomed the decision but said it “should have been made months ago”, claiming Labour have “dithered and delayed at every turn”.
“Now that Gatwick’s second runway has been approved, it’s crucial Labour ensures this infrastructure helps drive the economic growth our country needs,” he said.
A government source told Sky News the second runway is a “no-brainer for growth”.
“The transport secretary has cleared Gatwick expansion for take-off,” they said. “It is possible that planes could be taking off from a new full runway at Gatwick before the next general election.
“Any airport expansion must be delivered in line with our legally binding climate change commitments and meet strict environmental requirements.”
TalkTalk Group has picked advisers to spearhead a break-up that will lead to the sale of one of Britain’s biggest broadband providers.
Sky News has learnt that PJT Partners, the investment bank, is being lined up to handle a strategic review aimed at assessing the optimal timing for a disposal of TalkTalk’s remaining businesses.
PJT’s appointment is expected to be finalised shortly, City sources said this weekend.
Founded by Sir Charles Dunstone, the entrepreneur who also helped establish The Carphone Warehouse, TalkTalk has 3.2 million residential broadband customers across the UK.
That scale makes it one of the largest broadband suppliers in the country, and means that Ofcom, the telecoms industry regulator, will maintain a close eye on the company’s plans.
The break-up is expected to take some time to complete, and will involve the separate sales of TalkTalk’s consumer operations, and PlatformX, its wholesale and network division.
Within the latter unit, TalkTalk’s ethernet subsidiary could also be sold on a standalone basis, according to insiders.
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TalkTalk, which has been grappling with a heavily indebted balance sheet for some time, secured a significant boost during the summer when it agreed a £120m capital injection.
The bulk of those funds came from Ares Management, an existing lender to and shareholder in the company.
That new funding followed a £1.2bn refinancing completed late last year, but which failed to prevent bondholders pushing for further moves to strengthen its balance sheet.
Over the last year, TalkTalk has slashed hundreds of jobs in an attempt to exert a tighter grip on costs.
It also raised £50m from two disposals in March and June, comprising the sale of non-core customers to Utility Warehouse.
In addition, there was also an in-principle agreement to defer cash interest payments and to capitalise those worth approximately £60m.
The company’s business arm is separately owned by TalkTalk’s shareholders, following a deal struck in 2023.
TalkTalk was taken private from the London Stock Exchange in a £1.1bn deal led by sister companies Toscafund and Penta Capital.
Sir Charles, the group’s executive chairman, is also a shareholder.
The company is now run by chief executive James Smith.
The identity of suitors for TalkTalk’s remaining operations was unclear this weekend, although a number of other telecoms companies are expected to look at the consumer business.
Britain’s altnet sector, which comprises dozens of broadband infrastructure groups, has been struggling financially because of soaring costs and low customer take-up.
On Saturday, a TalkTalk spokesman declined to comment.