The account of the Post Office’s former chief executive about what she knew during key years of the firm’s scandal is not believed by the former CEO of Royal Mail, the inquiry into the injustice has heard.
Paula Vennells has been giving evidence as part of a three-day appearance at the inquiry into the impact of faulty Horizon accounting software, which led to the prosecution of more than 700 sub-postmasters.
In addition to the wrongful convictions for theft and false accounting, many more sub-postmaster victims generated large debts, lost homes, livelihoods and reputations and suffered ill health. Some died by suicide.
Widely not believed
The inquiry heard that Dame Moya Greene, the former Royal Mail CEO whom Ms Vennells worked alongside for many years, texted Ms Vennells in January of this year to express her disbelief at the wrongdoing denials.
Ms Vennells has long maintained – and reiterated on Wednesday – that she was unaware of the extent of flaws with Fujitsu’s Horizon software.
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Sub-postmasters listening to the inquiry in the Fenny Compton village hall in Warwickshire, where dozens of sub-postmasters met for the first time in 2009 as they began their fight for justice, also said they did not believe Ms Vennells.
“She is blatantly, utterly lying, and it’s got to stop,” former sub-postmaster Sally Stringer told Sky News.
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Dame Moya texted Ms Vennells after the airing of the ITV drama Mr Bates Vs The Post Office, which reinvigorated interest in the scandal, saying: “When it was clear the system was at fault, the Post Office should have raised a red flag. Stopped all proceedings. Given people back their money, and then tried to compensate them from the ruin this caused in their lives.”
When Ms Vennells replied that she agreed, Ms Greene said: “I don’t know what to say. I think you knew”.
“I want to believe you. I asked you twice. I suggested you get an independent review reporting to you. I was afraid you were being lied to. You said the system had already been reviewed multiple times. How could you not have known?” her text said.
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The question of how it was that she couldn’t have known was taken up the the inquiry’s lead barrister Jason Beer KC.
Ms Vennells core argument emerged early in questioning: she said she wasn’t informed of bugs because of the way information flowed within the organisation. She accepted that as CEO she was in charge of how information was communicated.
“I was too trusting,” she said.
Emotional testimony
Ms Vennells broke down in tears numerous times during her evidence, the first of which was when Mr Beer read out details of sub-postmasters who were not convicted, as juries accepted there were flaws with Horizon.
The inquiry had just been presented with evidence of Ms Vennells telling MPs in 2012, “Every case taken to prosecution has found in favour of the post office. There hasn’t been a case investigated where the horizon system has been found to be at fault”.
This belief, Ms Vennells said, was “a representation of the information that I was given” rather than proof of an unwavering belief that nothing had gone wrong.
‘Wait and see’ accusation
Criticism came from Mr Beer over the fulsomemess of Ms Vennells cumulative 798-page witness statement.
He asked if she was adopting a “wait and see” approach: “Let’s see what comes out in evidence. See what I’ve got to admit and then I’ll admit that?”
“Given you provided a 775-page witness statement that took seven months to write, could you not have reflected on what you should have done fully and differently within the witness statement?” he added.
Ms Vennells’ statement said that with the benefit of hindsight, there were “many things” she should have “done differently”, but she would wait for the inquiry to conclude to expand on that detail.
But she denied adopting a “wait and see” approach.
Rather, “It was simply a matter of time,” she said. “The inquiry asked me, I think, over 600 questions to 200 or 300 with subquestions in each. I went through probably hundreds of thousands of documents.”
Evidence to Parliament in 2015
A major question going into the inquiry was how Ms Vennells was able to tell Parliament in 2015 there was “no evidence” of “miscarriages of justice”.
On Wednesday morning, Ms Vennells said that was what she had been told “multiple times” by Fujitsu – that nothing had been found in Horizon.
Comic relief
Back in the village hall in Fenny Compton there were moments of laughter when Mr Beer asked Ms Vennells if she was “the unluckiest CEO in the United Kingdom?”
His question was asked “In the light of the information that you tell us in your witness statement you weren’t given… the documents that you tell us in your witness statement that you didn’t see. And in the light of the assurances that you tell us about in your witness statement that you were given by Post Office staff”.
‘Exculpatory’ remembering
Another line of questioning from Mr Beer was that Ms Vennells had a better memory of events and records that made her and the Post Office look good and a worse recollection of things that made her and her organisation look bad.
“Why is it that in your witness statement, when you refer to a recollection of a conversation that’s unminuted, undocumented, not referred to in any email there are always things that exculpate you that reduce your blameworthiness?” he asked.
That wasn’t her approach, Ms Vennells said.
Signing off a £300,000 legal bill to go after a £25,000 loss?
Sub-postmasters and those following the scandal likely will be listening out to see if Ms Vennells approved the legal bill to prosecute Lee Castleton, who was featured as a victim in the ITV drama.
Earlier this month former managing director Alan Cook told the inquiry Ms Vennells approved legal costs of £300,000 to prosecute Mr Castleton for a supposed £25,000 shortfall when she was a network director at the Post Office.
How worried should Rachel Reeves be about the fact that the interest rates on government bonds have leapt to the highest level in more than a quarter of a century?
More to the point, how worried should the rest of us be about it?
After all, the interest rate on 30-year government bonds (gilts, as they are known) hit 5.37% today—the highest level since 1998. The interest rate on the benchmark 10-year government bond is also up to the highest level since 2008.
Higher government borrowing rates mean, rather obviously, that the cost of all that investment Keir Starmer has promised in the coming years will go up. And since these rates reflect longer-term expectations for borrowing costs, in practice it means everything else in this economy will gradually get more expensive.
There are short-term and long-term consequences to all of this. In the short run, it means it will be harder for Ms Reeves to meet those fiscal rules she set herself. Back at the budget, she left herself a (in fiscal terms) paper-thin margin of £9.9bn not to overshoot on borrowing vs her new rules.
According to Capital Economics, based on recent market moves, that margin might now have been eroded down to around £1bn.
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And, given that’s before the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) has even decided on changes to its forecasts, it’s now touch and go as to whether Ms Reeves will meet her fiscal rules. As my colleague Sam Coates reported this week, the upshot is the Treasury is poised to pare back its spending plans in the coming years – a depressing prospect given the chancellor only just set them. But that won’t be clear until the OBR’s updated forecasts are published in March.
However, fiscal rules and political embarrassments are one thing – the bigger picture is another. And that bigger picture is that the UK is being charged higher interest rates by international investors to compensate them for their concerns about our economic future – about rising debt levels, about the threat of higher inflation and about fears of sub-par growth in the years to come.
How does this compare to the Liz Truss mini-budget?
But perhaps the biggest question of all is whether, what with long-term bond yields higher now (over 5.2%) than the highs they hit in October 2022, after the infamous mini-budget (4.8%), does that mean the economy is in even more of a crisis than it was under Liz Truss?
The short answer is no. This is nothing like the post mini-budget aftermath. Investors are concerned about UK debt levels – yes. They are repricing our debt accordingly. There was even a moment for a few days after the budget last autumn when the yields on UK bonds were behaving in an erratic, worrying way, rising more than most of our counterparts.
But – and this is the critical bit – we saw nothing like the levels of panic and concern in markets that we saw after the mini-budget. But don’t just take it from me. Consider two data-based metrics that are pretty useful in this case.
The first is to consider the fact that back in October 2022 it wasn’t just that the interest rates on government bonds were rising. It was that the pound was plummeting at the same time. That’s a toxic cocktail – a signal that investors are simply pulling their money out of the country. This time around, the pound is pretty steady, and is far stronger than it was in late 2022, when it hit the lowest level (against a basket of currencies) in modern history.
Is this just a UK problem?
The second test is to ask a question: is the UK an outlier? Are investors looking at this country and treating it differently to other countries?
And here, the answer is again somewhat reassuring for Ms Reeves. While it’s certainly true that UK government bond yields are up sharply in recent weeks, precisely the same thing is true of US government bond yields. Even German yields are up in recent weeks – albeit not as high as the US or UK.
In other words, the movements in bond yields don’t appear to be UK-specific. They’re part of a bigger movement across assets worldwide as investors face up to the new future – with governments (including the UK and the US under Donald Trump) willing to borrow more and spend more in the future. As I say, that’s somewhat reassuring for Ms Reeves, but I’m not sure it’s entirely reassuring for the rest of us.
One way of looking at this is by measuring how much the UK’s bond yields deviated from those American and German cousin rates in recent months. And while there was a point, a few days after Ms Reeves’ Halloween budget, when UK bond yields were more of an outlier than they historically have been after fiscal events, in the following weeks the UK stopped being much of an outlier. Yes, it was being charged more by investors, but then given the budget involved large spending and borrowing increases, that’s hardly surprising.
Now compare that with what happened after the mini-budget, when the UK’s bond yields deviated from their counterparts in the US and Germany more than after any other fiscal event in modern history – a terrifying rise which only ended after Kwasi Kwarteng stood down. Only when Ms Truss resigned were they back in what you might consider “normal” territory.
Now, it’s hard to compare different historical moments. The mini-budget was happening at a tense moment in financial markets, with the Bank of England poised to reverse its quantitative easing. Not all of the roller coaster can be attributed to Ms Truss. Even so, comparing that period to today is night and day.
Investors are not exactly delighted with the UK’s economic prospects right now. They’re letting this be known via financial markets. But they’re certainly not horrified in the way they were after the mini-budget of 2022.
The NESO is worried about a lack of spare capacity in the grid from 4pm until 7pm due to “system constraints”.
The body, which is in public control having been part of National Grid until last autumn, said in an update that it was seeking 1,200 megawatts (MW) of power as part of the so-called system margin notice.
Such notices are a call for a greater safety cushion between power demand and available supply.
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The NESO was at pains to point out that it does not signal that blackouts are imminent or that there is not enough generation to meet current demand.
The number of such power stations held in reserve was gradually drawn down under efforts to reduce the country’s carbon footprint.
Ratcliffe-on-Soar power station shut down in September.
The UK has reciprocal arrangements with neighbouring countries to draw power via so-called interconnectors if and when required to help keep the lights on.
National Grid data showed that more than 50% of the UK’s power was being generated through natural gas.
Renewables accounted for just 16% while France and Norway were helping provide 10% of output, with nuclear and Biomass accounting for the bulk of the balance.
Piers Morgan, the broadcaster and journalist, is leaving Rupert Murdoch’s British empire to focus on expanding his Uncensored YouTube channel in the US and other international markets, underlining prominent media figures’ accelerating shift away from traditional outlets.
Sky News can exclusively reveal that Mr Morgan and News UK – publisher of The Sun and The Times and owner of Times radio – have agreed a deal that will see him taking ownership of the Uncensored media brand and its existing 3.6 million-strong YouTube subscriber base through his production company, Wake Up Productions.
He is understood to have struck a four-year revenue-sharing deal with News UK that will see the Murdoch-owned company receiving a slice of the advertising revenue generated by Piers Morgan Uncensored until 2029.
Mr Morgan returned to News UK in January 2022 with a three-year deal that included writing regular columns for The Sun and New York Post, as well as presenting shows on the company’s now-folded television channel, Talk TV.
People close to the situation said a book deal with the Murdoch-owned publisher Harper Collins would still go ahead, with Mr Morgan expected to complete that project later this year.
He will also continue to write occasionally for News Corporation’s newspapers, according to one insider.
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Mr Morgan’s future had been the subject of growing speculation following the expiry of his three-year contract with News UK at the end of 2024.
As part of his new arrangements, Mr Morgan has also signed a deal with Red Seat Ventures, a US-based agency which partners with prominent media figures and influencers to help them exploit commercial opportunities through sponsorship and other revenue streams.
Among those Red Seat has worked with are Megyn Kelly, the American commentator, and Tucker Carlson, the former Fox News presenter.
Mr Morgan is also understood to have received expressions of interest in other commercial and broadcasting deals from American media groups, having been one of few Brits to present his own TV chatshow on a mainstream US network.
Fond of the phrase “One day you’re the cock of the walk, the next you’re the feather duster,” during various phases of his career, his latest deal reflects the shifting dynamics in media consumption.
Responding to an enquiry from Sky News on Wednesday morning, Mr Morgan said in a statement: “I have had a great time working back at News and am delighted that we will continue to be partners.
“Owning the brand allows my team and I the freedom to focus exclusively on building Uncensored into a standalone business, editorially and commercially, and in time, widening it from just me and my content.
“It’s clear from the recent US election that YouTube is an increasingly powerful and influential media platform, and Uncensored is one of the fastest-growing shows on it in the world.
“I’m very excited about the potential for Uncensored.”
Mr Morgan declined to comment on any other aspect of his new arrangement with News UK or his expansion plans ahead of an official announcement, which is understood to be scheduled for later on Wednesday.
His decision to strike out on his own – albeit with a continued relationship with News UK – is said to reflect his belief that broadcast audiences will increasingly shift away from mainstream channels to platforms such as YouTube.
“He thinks YouTube will be a dominant broadcasting platform in terms of audience share within a couple of years,” said one.
It was unclear what the precise revenue split would be between Wake Up Productions and News UK during their four-year partnership.
He is expected to focus his efforts to expand Uncensored on US audiences initially, with a wider international plan to follow that.
On Tuesday, Mr Morgan posted on X that he believed an interview with Elon Musk, the Tesla founder who has sparked a firestorm in British politics in recent weeks, was “getting closer”.
Among the other interviewees on his YouTube show have been Donald Trump during his first presidency, the Ukrainian president Volodomyr Zelensky and Cristiano Ronaldo, the footballer.